I entirely agree that the relationships portrayed in Buffy are difficult, and by and large doomed.  Good! That's what makes them the least bit convincing.

Relationships take work to maintain and affection is not a universal lubricant (as it were). 

In reality, love hurts - such a singularly powerful
emotion drives any individual to extreme behaviour. There is a deep reality for me in watching these
characters driven and confused by this tumultuous
event.

Add to this the Bizzarro-world of Sunnydale et al, and is anyone even surprised that the candy-floss is in short supply, but extra sweet for that, when it does come.

Where the fic is concerned, almost no paring feels
unlikely to me. It only matters that the author has
really given thought to how the characters will
relate.  I can accept the most unlikely plot devices
to get them together, as long as they relate like the people they *are*, not the people you would have written if *you* were Joss. (God! If you don't like *these* characters - write your bloody own!)

And I'm not talking here about the universal fluff
that is S/X fic, which I enjoy immensely and exists in a lovely neverland AU, but of fic where the central motivation and essence of a character is overwritten to allow for the pat and increadably boring ending. ("...and they lived happily ever after.") NO THEY DIDN'T!  And they probably won't. Wipe that stupid girlie grin off your face and deal!

Write me fics where people get hurt. Show me how they behave when they are stressed out, and devastatingly in love and it is fucking them up good-style.  Show me what they are really made of.  Show me the very best of these deep and interesting characters when they can't live another day without something breaking, or
changing, or connecting them to me!

Just keep doing what you are doing!

TrogX

First off I love your fanfiction, secondly I think your rant on the general disenchantment of both shows was very accurate,a disenchantment that I think would not be so loudly vocalized if Joss Whedon's name was the only one listed in the executive producer spot.  I do enjoy to read some of the rants though and have been known to post a couple of 'what the f**k' responses for a particular episode or scene.  There has been a great deal of discontent this season on both shows and it does get extremly tiresome, and sometimes posters can be downright hostile to opposing viewpoints which is quite aggravating.

I am a certain dreaded monster to some people known as a B/A shipper.  I love B/A, always have and always will but, that doesn't keep me from enjoying interesting story arcs and just the generalness of the show.  I hated Riley with a fiery passion but, I still watched the show, I still enjoyed the great writing and interesting plots. When I do rant I tend to stick only to where I know the majority of posters react they same way I do, 
if not more so I stay away from other posting boards where I would probably be skinned alive if I posted there.  I would personally be offended if Joss just had Buffy and Angel ride off into the sunset.  I want the blood, and the angst between those two that's what makes great writing.  Not to say that my pure shipper heart does not horde away all the sickly sweet moments as well.

I have always felt that the seasons have always directly felt and reflected the current theme and arc of the particular season.  This season being no different.  No one does twists and turns like the Jossverse.  In every episode of Buffy and Angel there is always at the very least one scene or one line that I have loved and adored, even in those most dreaded and badly written episodes. I love the nerd squad this season and the dark, guilty Spuffyness. Angel on the other hand is a different matter.  The baby arc was shocking, and I adore all things that are Wesley.  The biggest problem I've had this season is not the goofiness of Angel, that I can rationalize(even if I must roll my eyes on occassion), no I just can't get behind the romance of Angel and Cordelia.  I've tried, I honestly have but, I JUST CAN'T DO IT.  I like my Angel with vampires, slayers, or no one at all.  The writers just haven't been able to sell me on it.  I really enjoyed the brother-sister, non-sexual bond these two had and don't want it ruined by romantic entanglements.  There have been episodes that I just haven't watched, not as a personal vendetta against the WB, but just from lack of entertainment value.

Ranting, raving and bitching can get tiresome and bring down the good vibes you do have for the show.  But the only thing you can do is pull out of those particular boards, keep silent, or post your positive views over and over and over again and hope that maybe your views will work their way in and brighten people's views instead of bringing them down.  I will 
personally be counting down the days til new episodes and reading as much fanfic as humanly possible.  If you got all the way to the end of this thanks!!
                                                     -LucyLou
 
 

"When Conventional 'Shippers Go Bad: Or, The Evils of the One True 'Ship" was not, imho, a rant. It was a case of the proverbial hammer hitting the nail on the head. "'Shipper" does not equal "'Fluff-lover". I enjoy an occasional walk through the clouds, but for the most part it is the harsher, more shadowy fics that always touch me the deepest. That simply boils down to personal preference. 

I don't like a fic world that's black and white. I love to see all the lines blurred until the characters are left living in a world that is foggy and grey. Things are not spelled out for them, they are left to make decisions on their own. Sometimes their choices are good ones, often times they are bad, but in the end there is discovery, or growth, or death. 

So, does this mean I can't be a B/A 'shipper? Hell no! It just means that I'll have to look a little harder to find stories to my liking, tales with the just the right balance of angst and hopefulness to make a B/A fic feel "right" to me. (Harpy's "Letters" series is a great example of what I look for in a B/A fic.) 

Do I see Angel and Cordelia someday living happily ever after? Is there such a thing as happily ever after on Jossverse? I. don't. think. so. If there has been a single relationship in the world of cannon BtVS/Angel that hasn't had its share of dark moments and/or angst, I'd like someone, any one, to tell me about it! Oh, but I do I like see an author explore a relationship between Angel and Cordelia? Hell yes! It's one of my favorite pairings and has been since BtVS season 3. Yes, they can have their sweet, poignant moments (like the scene at the end of "Provider" with A/C/Connor all laying on Angel's bed, looking very much like a family...) but they must *all* be touched by a bit of darkness because until Joss&Co. tell us otherwise, if Angel gets too happy, Angel gets gone. And let's face it... Who's sexier: Goofy Angel or Broody Angel? And okay, this all starting to get a bit too ranty so I'll wrap it up. 

According to Baskin&Robins, the PTB have seen to it that we have at least 31 different flavors to choose from. Pick the one you like. If Pink Bubblegum is your favorite, well go ahead and have a double-scoop and enjoy it. You have every right to do so. However, it's not very polite to turn to the person who's eating Rocky Road and say "Eeww." That's just not done in polite circles! 

Oh, and I *loved* your ranking of the BtVS Episodes! I found your comments to be very insightful and on more than one occasion I laughed my ass-off. Given any thought to doing the same for Angel? (hint-hint) 

**smoochies** 

-kate
 

Ok, so I'll throw in my 2 cents on this season. I've been following what's been discussed here.

I adore this season. Like jess, I started watching in season 4. I loved it, but compared to this season, it's horrid crappy-poo spread out on those rather stale round crackers that have no taste that you find for sale in the deli section of the supermarket or with sausage gift baskets one recieves at Christmas time.

Understand?

I can't get why people can't grasp the fact that these kid's aren't that anymore. KIDS. High school is over. The issues of high school are like those really good Pepperridge farm crackers shaped like butterflies when compared to the problems that come after school when the real world starts to hit.

"It's sooooo depressing! Marti/Joss/ME/God/Elvis has decided that we will never get a happy ending!"

Um...well. This season's about growing up, right? And, well, I wish I had your life. Because, apparently, your life has some sort of filter that washes away the bad, and when any bad DOES slide through, it warns you and lets you know when and how the good stuff will come again.

Must be nice......

I appreciate the so-called "bad" of this season. Everyone knows about the "mid-life" crisis, right? What about that ignored "young-life" crisis? It's a fact that many many many people, myself included, have first hand experience with this. I like watching these people-characters-grow, yes, GROW, and experience this also.

You want to watch TV where nothing is too bad and all problems are solved in tidy little installments?

Watch "Full House" reruns. Then get back to me, ok?

Yeah, I've had moments of WTF? this season. But I have had them every season. And every season, looking back, has me nodding and saying, "Yeah, yeah, I get it now."

Because, you see, the really good stories are the ones that can't be swallowed and forgotten. You need to keep coming back to them with new eyes to ponder them. And Buffy's like that.

And as it's been said before.....if the show sucks like a whore a month behind on her rent...why watch it? 

Puca Dentata 
 
 
 
 
 

I have often found conventional shippers
onjectionable.  Those ships tend to attract lovesick
14-year-olds who see true love lasting forever, never appreciate the complexities of human nature and believe that if you love someone enough, everything will work itself out. 

The Buffy/Angel relationship was intensified by its
impossibility.  It was more of a crush than an actual relationship.  It was unreal, like many of the
relationships we have when very young.  Both
principles have grown as people since that time -
neither is the idealistic baby they were 5 years ago. 

Even when still an item, they could see that it wasn't going to work - so when are their shippers going to figure it out?

Angel/Cordy is far more a meeting of equals.  They're smart, tough people who I can't see having time for too much smooshy stuff.  If they come together, it's through an understanding that they could be dead before morning.  Love sonnets and wedding bells don't really fit with that scenario.

Immature people with little or no experience of a
"real" relationship will write Buffy/Angel or
Angel/Cordy with heavy sentimentality - usually
because they mistake sentiment for romance.
Relationships are tough - they go wrong, they develop in ways we don't expect - hell, sometimes they exist only because you have an itch to scratch.  Very rarely they will end "happily ever after" - it's a exception, not the rule.

I don't write shipper fic myself - I lack the
relationship chromosome - but I admire people who can write a ship I buy.... and those never end in "I do".

~Kate
 

Taking into all seriousness, the gravity of this task-
evaluating a well-written rant, I sat down with my
mildly caffeinated soda and proceeded to look very
carefully over what Jess offered on a fine, if more
than mildly snowy Wednesday evening. Thankfully, all spasms of horror, hilarity, or nausea have subsided and I am now able to type with some kind of dexterity.
 

(All nausea having been produced by mention of certain rabid B/A shippers who make me wonder why there aren't more prescriptions written for conditions like that. Likewise with horror, though I must confess I have a small measure of fear saved for those fluff-fics that are too cheerful for this universe or any other).

First of all, I think it important to state that I was
introduced formally to BTVS during the second season, and the very first episode I saw all the way through was 'Surprise.'  The moment I realized I was sliding down an icy slope was seeing Angelus drain that whore and then exhale, face ridges and all.  I thought 'that is so sexy.'  So, I went  off to find stories about these characters, and I learned something: the happy ending fluff endings are rarely done well.  I slogged through a great many stories, coming to the conclusion
that it was not doing anything for me to read about
two individuals already being lent out to the various
deities for amusement, suddenly being rewarded for all of their suffering with a holiday package.  What the hell? 

Like any great romance, Buffy and Angel ended on a horrible note, as it should be.  Romeo and Juliet
passionate, and destructive to one another.  At least the vampire walked away, having already been killed, shattering his soulmate's heart was better than leading her into a death that she might enjoy. 

Because, he had an ideal image of her, that she was not the same kind of monster as he, when we all know that Buffy is powerful, lacking normalcy, and convinced that she should be able to have it all.  She tries too hard to be normal, example: Angel as the neutered boyfriend, Riley, and how she treated the one human male who tried to understand.  She is a hunter, bringing death, and it's not her lot to have the little cookie cutter house, at least not until the afterlife.   Though, if we believe what she said about Heaven, she was suspended in a fluffy cloud bank of divinity. 

Buffy is held to this earth by her friends, their
presence is what makes her stronger, and at the same time, they refuse to let her go; she should ask someone to cremate her next time. 

The people who complain about the darkness of fiction in BTVS, and by association, A:ts, have to realize that Joss is not writing about something fantastically wonderful.  This is life, a form of it, and all of its
difficulties.

Yes, behold the horror- and there is a great deal of
it.

Now, to say that everyone is going to go along with life, being smacked around and then leaping up to end up with that 'One True Person,' is a delusion.  What made Buffy and Angel's relationship successful, was denial.  His ability to forget that he was 'the Scourge of Europe,' and the fact that she didn't look at him as a vampire.  Hiding what is right in front of you is a good way to make yourself believe that everything is alright, but it is a poor way to love
someone.

When Angel did act like a vampire, he was killed by Buffy, and then when he came back from Hell, he let her walk over him.  The problem then was that he'd grown up quite a bit- the spiny demons in Hell part will go unsaid, I think that Donna knows what I mean. But, a Master vampire has a different mindset than the minions, they govern others, and form groups.  They find a territory and defend it.  Angel left because of a destructive love, and the need for space.  When he and Buffy met in Los Angeles, Angel made it clear that she was in 'his city.'  That was a very clear statement, her rights were limited in a place that he regarded as his responsibility, and this is a mirror of what she has expressed to him before when he's gone to protect her.  Hunters have to have some kind of
agreement, having more than one of them in the same area is dangerous to both.

I seem to have wandered off topic.  Oh dear. 

But, back to the point; one true pairings are very
fragile things.  Think of life, attractions come into
a relationship, outsiders make one or the other drift off, and infidelity abounds.  There are those people who are able to sustain a faithful and happy
partnership, but those are the lucky ones.  There are many stories about how things go wrong, and with multiple ships, there are more opportunities for emotional wrecks.  All of the characters that are out there have the potential to be paired with one another, and then to fall apart.

For example: A/C.  Anyone who thinks that Cordelia and Angel will have a healthy relationship need to go and get a dose of reality.  Two colleagues working together are a natural choice for a romance, but the environment around them does not always prosper.  If Angel was to truly 'go after' Cordelia, who is to say that it wouldn't be messy?  In the past, those that
Angel has cared about, have had deaths laid out for their appreciation.  He killed for and with Darla,
tormented Dru, and most likely taught her to hunt, and part of what made him useful in Sunnydale was his willingness to help the Slayer.  Angel doesn't understand romance the way that Cordelia has learned it, he can be sweet, giving her clothes, protecting her, but he is a vampire, one with a soul, and one that has a long history of torturing those closest to him, forming destructive bonds, and then leaving. 

That is his pattern, and since he has already tried to get rid of Cordelia and the rest of his new 'family,' it would be outrageous to assume that their trust would be so firm as to allow for a delicate and clean affection.  Cordelia cuts Angel down to get through to him, and that can be useful at times, but he has a self-hatred that is fed by the opinions of those around them, and Cordelia could quite easily fixate on that.

That is just one scenario, I could go on for a time
about the ways that Groo would be removed from the earth, as an expression of Angel's love for Cordelia.

I just think that the one true pairing mindset comes out of that idea of there being a true love, who will bring happiness and flower blossoms to their soulmate.

But, I've seen my share of flower petals, and in Joss' world, they are usually floating on blood.

And, you know what?  I'll take that, pool of crimson and dead blooms and all, because I know it will be beautifully written, agonizing, and most of all, interesting.

scy
 

I just read Jessica's rant on 'shippers at The AlmightyGAH and just wanted to let you know that I enjoyed it a lot. I think it's well thought-out and articulate. I also happen to agree with about 95% of what was said - and the 5% doesn't bother me.

Personally, I like my fanfic (in any fandom) in several different flavors. Sometimes I want fluff, sometimes I crave angst and darkness. I'm always in a mood for slash, tho. The main thing for me is that the story AND the writing are good. I admit, I've been known to read some stories that cried out for a betareader, because the story was interesting enough, but most of the time I won't bother with a story if it's poorly written.

I tend to believe in 'live and let live', and seeing people trying to sell their view of things as the only right one irritates me a lot. I also don't get the 'the writers own me this and that' additude at all. That's why I'm glad you addressed these issues in your rant. I hope you haven't gotten flamed too much for doing so!

Looking forward to more fanfics from the both of you,

Titta